Masonic Forum Home Search Members Calendar Who's On Welcome Guest ( Login | Register ) Recent PostsRecent Posts Popular TopicsPopular Topics Home » General » Feminine & Co-Masonry » Amity 24 posts, Page 2 of 3««123»» Amity Rate Topic Display Mode Topic Options Author Message lauderdalelauderdale Posted 29/01/2010 12:48 Excellent Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: 04/07/2010 12:56 Posts: 2,238, Visits: 4,269 My question would be would a Woman Only GL such as OWF or HFAF accept them as a woman. Legally in the UK they would be so, emotionally they certainly would be, externally they would physically be a woman although they could not conceive. I do wonder if this issue will ever arise. Personally, and if they were otherwise suitable I would have no problem Proposing such a person for an LDH Lodge. Post #17847 Mike MartinMike Martin Posted 29/01/2010 12:57 Past Master Group: Administrators Last Login: Today @ 12:34 Posts: 1,334, Visits: 3,813 Lauderdale (29/01/2010)My question would be would a Woman Only GL such as OWF or HFAF accept them as a woman. Legally in the UK they would be so, emotionally they certainly would be, externally they would physically be a woman although they could not conceive. I do wonder if this issue will ever arise. I think the chances of a gender reassignment cropping up in Masonic circles are growing every year. 20 years ago I had never even heard of the phrase that I have written above but nowadays there are programmes on the telly about it and it is an acceptable topic for conversation. MikeThe Freemasons' Grand Charity My Mother Lodge website Join or just visit my Masonic Web RingSee my BALLS here Post #17848 lauderdalelauderdale Posted 29/01/2010 13:13 Excellent Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: 04/07/2010 12:56 Posts: 2,238, Visits: 4,269 Indeed so. Gender Dysphoria is now a recognised medical condition. In the bad old days anyone suffering from it would have been put in a lunatic asylum. Thankfully we now live in more humane times. I know a couple of people who have had Male to Female GRS and very nice women they now are too. I have not as yet met any who have undertaken Female to Male GRS but am aware that there are some. Post #17849 Cora BCora B Posted 01/02/2010 12:37 Fellow Group: Forum Members Last Login: Today @ 12:16 Posts: 389, Visits: 887 Hi Tony,Sparker (28/01/2010)Just suppose.... UGLE became to be in amity with LDH. Would UGLE Masons be welcomed?.. You already are - we recognise UGLE.and by that I mean if it were possible to be a member of both....and UGLE Masons were desirous.... would LDH welcome them with open arms?I suspect for such dual membership a dual membership treaty would be required such as is in force between ourselves and GOdF, and also GLFdF. It takes a while for such a treaty to be put in force, but once in force, there would be no obstacle for your dual membership, and from what I have seen of current dual memberships it would be in all Brotherly Love.And and and...if an UGLE Mason had a sex change..now being female in the eyes of the law... would he be expelled from UGLE?.. would he be accepted by LDH then?I have no idea what this would mean for her in the eyes of UGLE, but gender being irrelevant to us she would be welcome subject to her meeting all other usual requirements.h.g.w., Cora -- International Order of Co-Freemasonry "Le Droit Humain", British Federation Lodge Light of Amen-Ra No. 717, Orient of Surbiton Lodge St Francis No. 817, Orient of Camberley Mark Lodge Nephthys No. 32, Quarries of Surbiton HRA Triangle The Hidden Glory, Vault of Surbiton Post #17976 Alan CampbellAlan Campbell Posted 01/02/2010 22:28 Past Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: 22/07/2010 19:44 Posts: 1,089, Visits: 1,323 As for the position of GLoS, i honestly can't see them ever changing and allowing inter visitation between male and female lodges, i know that i don't in anyway or capacity speak for them but you should have seen the problems our lodge had when it was suggested that a woman works behind the bar. I know of 2 brethren that stated they would never walk through the doors again. Thankfully common sense prevailed and we now have bar staff instead of office bearers working on meetings nights( this allows all the office bearers to enjoy the compant of their friends, instead of working). Of the 2 brethren that i mentioned 1 came back and admitted he was wrong the other cam back to 1 meeting and has never been back. From this i would suggest that women in Scottish lodges might not happen in the near future and for me personally i can't see a problem with that. Each to their own.As for the cross gender issue i don't think a can opener has been invented to open the enormous can of worms that one would create. Post #17998 DHSDHS Posted 02/02/2010 08:49 Journeyman Group: Forum Members Last Login: Today @ 11:18 Posts: 153, Visits: 838 I suspect in my part of Scotland the biggest barrier to co-masonry would be the wives of Freemasons themselves. Can you imagine the stramash if any of us announced we were off to a meeting where other women would be present but no we can't tell you what happens at these meetings? In terms of a Bro. who has undergone gender realignment, I suspect that she would prove to be the better Freemason and remove herself from the Lodge rather than affect the Harmony regardless of whether "technically" she should be obliged to do so. As politically correct as we all might like to be, we would be foolish to believe that everyone would warmly accept such a change, nor would they be willing to accept that they were the ones affecting that harmony. Post #18011 dpdp Posted 02/02/2010 09:27 Past Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: Today @ 11:26 Posts: 903, Visits: 2,597 If a Brother had their gender changed and made themselves legally a woman and your GL did not allow women to sit in open Lodge. Then surely they would not be allowed back regardless of whether or not they had been a member in good standing before the op... Post #18012 lauderdalelauderdale Posted 02/02/2010 09:40 Excellent Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: 04/07/2010 12:56 Posts: 2,238, Visits: 4,269 Bro DP, if a GL l did not let a woman Freemason sit in its Lodges then I agree, they would not let someone who had Male to Female GRS do so. Also I doubt if someone who had made this painful transition and was now legally Female and wished to be considered as such would want to remain a member of such a Male Only organisation as UGLE? The only option I can see for such a Brother born and Initiated as a Male but now a Female would be to apply to join one of the Women-Only bodies such as OWF or HFAF, assuming they have no bar on such a person, or of course LDH or another Co-Masonic Body where this would be an non-issue assuming the person to be suitable in other aspects. Post #18013 DHSDHS Posted 02/02/2010 09:52 Journeyman Group: Forum Members Last Login: Today @ 11:18 Posts: 153, Visits: 838 dp (02/02/2010)If a Brother had their gender changed and made themselves legally a woman and your GL did not allow women to sit in open Lodge. Then surely they would not be allowed back regardless of whether or not they had been a member in good standing before the op... Our EA obligation is not to be at the Initiation of a woman and to protect our secrets from any who have not been Initiated. To the best of my knowledge there is no specific ruling that women may not be admitted if they have already been Initiated in a manner which we would recognise as worthy, though unless a female only or mixed Lodge was in amity with us (which I doubt will happen for GloS in our lifetimes if ever) no woman could ever sit in a GLoS Lodge. We do though acknowledge that such organisations exist and provide links to HFAF and LDH on the Grand Lodge website so in an attempt to explore the subject matter a bit further - in the genuine interests of amity amongst the members of this forum at least - here is a puzzler for you all: Having been initiated as a man, I happily put the ball back into your court(s) for a suggestion as to what the Lodge shoud do now if their man becomes a woman... Post #18014 lauderdalelauderdale Posted 02/02/2010 10:22 Excellent Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: 04/07/2010 12:56 Posts: 2,238, Visits: 4,269 I would doubt if any one Lodge in GL of S, far less in UGLE, would have the power to take such a decision for itself.Let us walk through this scenario. John has been Initiated (and no doubt Passed and Raised) as a Mason in a Lodge which is part of a Malecraft GL, for ease let us say UGLE,he could even be a PM. John, some years later, has GRS and is now Joan, a woman to all external appearances with surgically fashioned female genitalia and silicone enhanced breasts. She considers herself emotionally and psychologically to be a woman and the Law of the Land considers her to be a woman, all her official documents can (and have been) be changed, e.g. Birth Certificate, Passport, Driving Licence etc.Joan, as she now is, turns up for a Meeting of her UGLE Craft Lodge, possibly wearing a woman's trouser suit rather than a skirt. Now this would at the very least cause a stir amongst the members of that Lodge. I assume that she might be asked to take leave of absence from the Lodge until such time as the matter had been refered to Province / Grand Lodge for resolution. Some people would of course contend that as one of the Landmarks of UGLE is that no woman can be made a Mason nor can attend an UGLE Lodge even if a Mason in a GL which does have female Brethren eg, OWF, HFAF or LDH, then John/Joan, being now a woman, could no longer attend. I cannot of course speak for UGLE but I assume they might suggest to Joan that she resign and a Clearance Certificate be issued to her which she could then use should she wish to join a Woman only or Co-Masonic body and that she would be permitted to retain her (UGLE) Grand Lodge Certificate.I do not know if such a situation has occurred, or what would happen in the reverse scenario where a Joan had Female to Male GRS and become John and wished to become an UGLE Mason? 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Personally, and if they were otherwise suitable I would have no problem Proposing such a person for an LDH Lodge.
I think the chances of a gender reassignment cropping up in Masonic circles are growing every year. 20 years ago I had never even heard of the phrase that I have written above but nowadays there are programmes on the telly about it and it is an acceptable topic for conversation.
MikeThe Freemasons' Grand Charity My Mother Lodge website Join or just visit my Masonic Web RingSee my BALLS here
You already are - we recognise UGLE.
I suspect for such dual membership a dual membership treaty would be required such as is in force between ourselves and GOdF, and also GLFdF. It takes a while for such a treaty to be put in force, but once in force, there would be no obstacle for your dual membership, and from what I have seen of current dual memberships it would be in all Brotherly Love.
I have no idea what this would mean for her in the eyes of UGLE, but gender being irrelevant to us she would be welcome subject to her meeting all other usual requirements.h.g.w.,
From this i would suggest that women in Scottish lodges might not happen in the near future and for me personally i can't see a problem with that. Each to their own.
As for the cross gender issue i don't think a can opener has been invented to open the enormous can of worms that one would create.
The only option I can see for such a Brother born and Initiated as a Male but now a Female would be to apply to join one of the Women-Only bodies such as OWF or HFAF, assuming they have no bar on such a person, or of course LDH or another Co-Masonic Body where this would be an non-issue assuming the person to be suitable in other aspects.
Let us walk through this scenario. John has been Initiated (and no doubt Passed and Raised) as a Mason in a Lodge which is part of a Malecraft GL, for ease let us say UGLE,he could even be a PM. John, some years later, has GRS and is now Joan, a woman to all external appearances with surgically fashioned female genitalia and silicone enhanced breasts. She considers herself emotionally and psychologically to be a woman and the Law of the Land considers her to be a woman, all her official documents can (and have been) be changed, e.g. Birth Certificate, Passport, Driving Licence etc.
Joan, as she now is, turns up for a Meeting of her UGLE Craft Lodge, possibly wearing a woman's trouser suit rather than a skirt. Now this would at the very least cause a stir amongst the members of that Lodge. I assume that she might be asked to take leave of absence from the Lodge until such time as the matter had been refered to Province / Grand Lodge for resolution. Some people would of course contend that as one of the Landmarks of UGLE is that no woman can be made a Mason nor can attend an UGLE Lodge even if a Mason in a GL which does have female Brethren eg, OWF, HFAF or LDH, then John/Joan, being now a woman, could no longer attend. I cannot of course speak for UGLE but I assume they might suggest to Joan that she resign and a Clearance Certificate be issued to her which she could then use should she wish to join a Woman only or Co-Masonic body and that she would be permitted to retain her (UGLE) Grand Lodge Certificate.
I do not know if such a situation has occurred, or what would happen in the reverse scenario where a Joan had Female to Male GRS and become John and wished to become an UGLE Mason?
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