Masonic Forum Home Search Members Calendar Who's On Welcome Guest ( Login | Register ) Recent PostsRecent Posts Popular TopicsPopular Topics Home » General » Knobs & Excrescences » faith and tolerance 111 posts, Page 9 of 12«««7891011»»» faith and tolerance Rate Topic Display Mode Topic Options Author Message Cora BCora B Posted 11/03/2010 12:48 Fellow Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 12:44 Posts: 392, Visits: 911 Nosameerf (11/03/2010)Agneau (11/03/2010)No - when I moved in beliefto commited Atheist, I resigned from the Christian Orders.So can I ask you to summarise your definition of the GAOTU? Surely not - surely that is not a requirement? Surely the Bro:., like the candidate is free to give his own definition to that concept? Cora -- International Order of Co-Freemasonry "Le Droit Humain", British Federation Lodge Light of Amen-Ra No. 717, Orient of Surbiton Lodge St Francis No. 817, Orient of Camberley Mark Lodge Nephthys No. 32, Quarries of Surbiton HRA Triangle The Hidden Glory, Vault of Surbiton Post #19489 NosameerfNosameerf Posted 11/03/2010 13:08 Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 04:58 Posts: 422, Visits: 7,801 Cora B (11/03/2010)Surely not - surely that is not a requirement? Surely the Bro:., like thecandidate is free to give his own definition to that concept? You seem quick to jump the gun on this issue. I 'asked' Agneau to summarise his definition of a GAOTU. I never 'required' him. He is already a Freemason and I am not on a panel asking him to join my Lodge. He has freely volunteered that he is an atheist amongst other things. For the sake of this debate and to make sure there is no misunderstanding between us, I have sought clarity. Your obedience allows atheists, mine does not (especially after I just double-checked with Grand Lodge), so I don't understand why you feel the right to assert your beliefs onto UGLE. No one had been rude to Agneau as he seems to think, otherwise the moderators here would have quickly intervened. The fact that Agneau feels uncomfortable means that I think some soul searching is required on his part. Cora B (11/03/2010)So, when a candidate comes to us, fully cognisant of the fact the s/he bears within him/herself the reflection of his/her Maker; the Divine Light; a candidate cognisant of the fact, in accordance with their religious beliefs, that they themselves can attain to that Supreme state of Being; of One-ness with their Maker; that in fact, all that is, IS at One with God, I see a candidate perfectly fit to be made a freemason. Again you are assuming. Strength of manhood and beauty of spirit need combination. Masonry thus needs strength with gracefulness, stability with courtesy, and firmness with gentleness. Sapere aude; incipe! Post #19493 AgneauAgneau Posted 11/03/2010 13:15 Apprentice Group: Forum Members Last Login: 23/08/2010 13:16 Posts: 17, Visits: 32 Nosameerf (11/03/2010)[quote]Cora B (11/03/2010)The fact that Agneau feels uncomfortable means that I think some soul searching is required on his part.That look's like point scoring using a straw man - not really worthy of us, is it?Agneau doesn't feel uncomfortable, so wrong again.....please stick to your own feelings and not presume to know mine. Post #19496 Cora BCora B Posted 11/03/2010 13:24 Fellow Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 12:44 Posts: 392, Visits: 911 Please - let's not allow this to become a 'yours' vs 'mine' issue. Let's not allow there to be any separation. I responded emotively, because I feel passionate about this subject, though not exclusively limited to a masonic context. I realise this is a difficult subject, particularly in this context, but I feel it is an important one. Not just for freemasonry, but for humanity on a grander scale.I understand my questions and comments may have seemed judgmental - they are not. Challenging, yes. Probing, certainly. But never judgmental. You see, I think, feel and exist in an inclusive manner, so what affects you, affects me, and vice versa. There is no sense in attacking you, or your beliefs, because I would be attacking me, and my beliefs. I know that may seem peculiar, but those are my beliefs.I believe that our in-built need to recognise separation is one of the biggest root causes of all ills that plague this world of ours, and if we could but recognise the inseparable union of Life - God including - things would be whole lot better. So I challenge separationist, exclusionist concepts. I ask people to explore those ideas and consider the notion of unity. And do the 'what if' exercise.What if ... all you knew, have ever known, will ever know, was One? What if you were at One with All? So, if in the course of asking those questions you have felt uncomfortable, I apologise for giving you the opportunity to look at yourself in that light. Nevertheless, I invite you to do it again, whenever you feel ready to. Cora -- International Order of Co-Freemasonry "Le Droit Humain", British Federation Lodge Light of Amen-Ra No. 717, Orient of Surbiton Lodge St Francis No. 817, Orient of Camberley Mark Lodge Nephthys No. 32, Quarries of Surbiton HRA Triangle The Hidden Glory, Vault of Surbiton Post #19498 NosameerfNosameerf Posted 11/03/2010 13:24 Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 04:58 Posts: 422, Visits: 7,801 Agneau (11/03/2010)[quote][b]That look's like point scoring using a straw man - not really worthy of us, is it? I promise you I am not trying to point score. I don't want this thread close either, hence I endeavour to be firm but fair. I simply don't agree with your point of view that is all. Strength of manhood and beauty of spirit need combination. Masonry thus needs strength with gracefulness, stability with courtesy, and firmness with gentleness. Sapere aude; incipe! Post #19499 NosameerfNosameerf Posted 11/03/2010 13:27 Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 04:58 Posts: 422, Visits: 7,801 Cora B (11/03/2010)I responded emotively, because I feel passionate about this subject, though not exclusively limited to a masonic context.... So, if in the course of asking those questions you have felt uncomfortable, I apologise for giving you the opportunity to look at yourself in that light. Nevertheless, I invite you to do it again, whenever you feel ready to. I thank you then for giving me the opportunity to examine and reaffirm my beliefs but lets keep this rational and not emotional. Strength of manhood and beauty of spirit need combination. Masonry thus needs strength with gracefulness, stability with courtesy, and firmness with gentleness. Sapere aude; incipe! Post #19500 Cora BCora B Posted 11/03/2010 13:27 Fellow Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 12:44 Posts: 392, Visits: 911 Nosameerf (11/03/2010)Cora B (11/03/2010)[quote]Cora B (11/03/2010)So, when a candidate comes to us, fully cognisant of the fact the s/he bears within him/herself the reflection of his/her Maker; the Divine Light; a candidate cognisant of the fact, in accordance with their religious beliefs, that they themselves can attain to that Supreme state of Being; of One-ness with their Maker; that in fact, all that is, IS at One with God, I see a candidate perfectly fit to be made a freemason.Again you are assuming.No - I am sharing my beliefs. Cora -- International Order of Co-Freemasonry "Le Droit Humain", British Federation Lodge Light of Amen-Ra No. 717, Orient of Surbiton Lodge St Francis No. 817, Orient of Camberley Mark Lodge Nephthys No. 32, Quarries of Surbiton HRA Triangle The Hidden Glory, Vault of Surbiton Post #19501 Cora BCora B Posted 11/03/2010 13:29 Fellow Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 12:44 Posts: 392, Visits: 911 Nosameerf (11/03/2010)Cora B (11/03/2010)I responded emotively, because I feel passionate about this subject, though not exclusively limited to a masonic context....So, if in the course of asking those questions you have felt uncomfortable, I apologise for giving you the opportunity to look at yourself in that light. Nevertheless, I invite you to do it again, whenever you feel ready to.I thank you then for giving me the opportunity to examine and reaffirm my beliefs but lets keep this rational and not emotional. You may approach Life in any way you wish to. So may I. Cora -- International Order of Co-Freemasonry "Le Droit Humain", British Federation Lodge Light of Amen-Ra No. 717, Orient of Surbiton Lodge St Francis No. 817, Orient of Camberley Mark Lodge Nephthys No. 32, Quarries of Surbiton HRA Triangle The Hidden Glory, Vault of Surbiton Post #19502 NosameerfNosameerf Posted 11/03/2010 13:32 Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 04:58 Posts: 422, Visits: 7,801 Cora B (11/03/2010)No - I am sharing my beliefs. Ahhh, my apologies then Cora, I though you were commenting with reference to Agneau. Now I am assuming! Strength of manhood and beauty of spirit need combination. Masonry thus needs strength with gracefulness, stability with courtesy, and firmness with gentleness. Sapere aude; incipe! Post #19503 dpdp Posted 11/03/2010 13:32 Past Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 15:41 Posts: 963, Visits: 2,735 Agneau (11/03/2010)dp (11/03/2010)Do you know, I am beginning to feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall... I posted the dictionary definition of an Atheist before and they don't believe in a Supreme Being so if you do your not an Atheist.... I don't know what you believe. You say it's compatible so great, well done, you qualify... And you live you're life according to online dictionary definitions? Well done, you too, pal. End of discussion, methinks. I may or may not live my life to on-line dictionary definitions. Really that isn't the point. The fact is that we are communicating through and on-line text forum. Therefore it is important if we wish to get our point of view across that we in fact present a view that other members of the forum are able to understand. Otherwise we just go in circles. So when you say you are an Atheist, then your not, then you are a committed one and then you may or may not be but that is up to you and the dictionary definition is no good to us... phew. I for one don't know where you are coming from so yes, I think the discussion is over as I really don't know what we are discussing any more. It doesn't matter, you have, as I have said multiple times the absolute right to believe what you believe. On the other hand I think I have been quite clear. This question is about the individual concerned. And here I mean anyone wishing to join Freemasonry. As I said in previous posts, and as others have said, there is Freemasonry available for Atheists, whether they conform to dictionary definitions or not. But an Atheist (of the dictionary definition sort) may well join UGLE and Amity Freemasonry. For sure. No problamo. They will just have to lie to do so. When I had my interview I was asked as millions of men have been before me "Do you believe in a Supreme Being?" "Yes" I answered. I was then asked if I would be happy to swear on the Holy Bible and I said yes. UGLE and Amity Freemasonry will never ask you to define what it is you believe. So if YOU believe that you meet the entry requirements then you do. If you don't, then you don't. If you do and your in, what's the problem? 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Surely not - surely that is not a requirement? Surely the Bro:., like the candidate is free to give his own definition to that concept?
That look's like point scoring using a straw man - not really worthy of us, is it?
Agneau doesn't feel uncomfortable, so wrong again.....please stick to your own feelings and not presume to know mine.
I responded emotively, because I feel passionate about this subject, though not exclusively limited to a masonic context.
I realise this is a difficult subject, particularly in this context, but I feel it is an important one. Not just for freemasonry, but for humanity on a grander scale.
I understand my questions and comments may have seemed judgmental - they are not. Challenging, yes. Probing, certainly. But never judgmental.
You see, I think, feel and exist in an inclusive manner, so what affects you, affects me, and vice versa. There is no sense in attacking you, or your beliefs, because I would be attacking me, and my beliefs. I know that may seem peculiar, but those are my beliefs.
I believe that our in-built need to recognise separation is one of the biggest root causes of all ills that plague this world of ours, and if we could but recognise the inseparable union of Life - God including - things would be whole lot better. So I challenge separationist, exclusionist concepts. I ask people to explore those ideas and consider the notion of unity. And do the 'what if' exercise.
What if ... all you knew, have ever known, will ever know, was One? What if you were at One with All?
So, if in the course of asking those questions you have felt uncomfortable, I apologise for giving you the opportunity to look at yourself in that light. Nevertheless, I invite you to do it again, whenever you feel ready to.
No - I am sharing my beliefs.
You may approach Life in any way you wish to. So may I.
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