Masonic Forum Home Search Members Calendar Who's On Welcome Guest ( Login | Register ) Recent PostsRecent Posts Popular TopicsPopular Topics Home » General » General Masonic Discussion » Food for thought on Swedish regularity 18 posts, Page 2 of 2««12 Food for thought on Swedish regularity Rate Topic Display Mode Topic Options Author Message BergBerg Posted 10/03/2010 14:37 Apprentice Group: Forum Members Last Login: 11/03/2010 21:13 Posts: 3, Visits: 5 Mike Martin (08/03/2010) ... LDH would still be out as LDH Federations are actually governed by a Supreme Councilin Paris which means that an LDHFederation can notmeetcriteria 5. If the UGLE was to consider LDH as a whole it would then further fall down on 2 and 3 as well, as they are not a universal requirementwithin LDH as a whole. ... . Just a comment regarding the UGLE recognition criteria no. 5. I suppose that there could be two objections: - that the the craft degrees are integrated with higher degrees, and - that the integrated obedience is governed by the higher degrees. UGLE today recognises five obediences working the Swedish Rite (in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland and one in Germany) were these two issues are present. They are integrated and they are governed by Grand Land Lodges which meet in the degree VIII (and thus the three craft degrees cannot be present). It seems that the criteria no. 5 of recognition is not met for these obediences, but recognition is still granted. Post #19418 Mike MartinMike Martin Posted 10/03/2010 15:23 Past Master Group: Administrators Last Login: Today @ 12:34 Posts: 1,334, Visits: 3,813 Berg (10/03/2010)Just a comment regarding the UGLE recognition criteria no. 5. I suppose that there could be two objections:- that the the craft degrees are integrated with higher degrees, and - that the integrated obedience is governed by the higher degrees.UGLE today recognises five obediences working the Swedish Rite (in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland and one in Germany) were these two issues are present. They are integrated and they are governed by Grand Land Lodges which meet in the degree VIII (and thus the three craft degrees cannot be present). It seems that the criteria no. 5 of recognition is not met for these obediences, but recognition is still granted.Hi Berg and welcome to the Forum.I think you have missed the point a bit. The criteria is not addressing management of individual degrees but of Masonic Units (ie Lodges) where they occur.A Federation of LDH is subserviant to the Supreme Council of LDH which is in Paris. This means that a LDH National Fedration fails criteria 5 as its policies can be affected by its Supreme Council.Are you saying that this is true of the Grand Lodges to which you are referring? In other words can the Grand Lodge of Sweden issue a directive to the Grand Lodge of Denmark that it must comply with? MikeThe Freemasons' Grand Charity My Mother Lodge website Join or just visit my Masonic Web RingSee my BALLS here Post #19423 lauderdalelauderdale Posted 10/03/2010 18:38 Excellent Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: 04/07/2010 12:56 Posts: 2,238, Visits: 4,269 I don't think subservient is the correct word. Yes the ultimate Governing Authority for LDH is our Elected Grand Master who heads the Supreme Council meeting in the Zenith of Paris. Is that so different for say the UGLE Province of Sussex having its ultimate Governing Authority as The Appointed Grand Master (it would seem for life as far as the current incumbent is concerned) who heads UGLE based in Gt Queen St, London? In fact we have quite a degree of autonomy, not just at British Federation Level but right down to each individual Lodge, far more than an UGLE Lodge enjoys in real life, whatever may be said in the B of C. There is far more consultation in LDH and we are more Democratic. For example the National Council is elected not apppointed and we do not have Provinces, PGMs etc, etc. You know, it is not that bad answering ultimately to a Supreme Council in Paris and as we are an International Order the venue is irrelevant, from what I have personally experienced their yoke is light and they do not micromanage us. Still, each to his own as they say. Post #19442 TrismegistosTrismegistos Posted 10/03/2010 18:44 Apprentice Group: Forum Members Last Login: Yesterday @ 17:45 Posts: 12, Visits: 55 Mike:When talking about the SwOF and their religious demands I was referring to "the ordinary Masonic tradition" and not specifically to UGLE:s rules of recognition, for example the words from Anderson's Constitution on "that religion in which all men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves". You are quite right to point out that UGLE:s criteria of regularity do not demand this, though. / Bro. Ola ----------------------- 1st degree, Le Droit Humain - Scandinavian Federation Lodge Odin, Nr. 743 My blog, "Dead Tongues Whispering" Post #19443 Mike MartinMike Martin Posted 10/03/2010 19:07 Past Master Group: Administrators Last Login: Today @ 12:34 Posts: 1,334, Visits: 3,813 Trismegistos (10/03/2010)When talking about the SwOF and their religious demands I was referring to "the ordinary Masonic tradition" and not specifically to UGLE:s rules of recognition, for example the words from Anderson's Constitution on "that religion in which all men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves". You are quite right to point out that UGLE:s criteria of regularity do not demand this, though.Hi Ola,OK I see that but of course when talking about the ordinary Masonic tradition, there are those who argue quite convincingly against Anderson's de-Christianisation of what was a very Christian pasttime prior to 1717. MikeThe Freemasons' Grand Charity My Mother Lodge website Join or just visit my Masonic Web RingSee my BALLS here Post #19444 BergBerg Posted 11/03/2010 01:14 Apprentice Group: Forum Members Last Login: 11/03/2010 21:13 Posts: 3, Visits: 5 Mike Martin (10/03/2010)Berg (10/03/2010)Just a comment regarding the UGLE recognition criteria no. 5. I suppose that there could be two objections: - that the the craft degrees are integrated with higher degrees, and - that the integrated obedience is governed by the higher degrees. UGLE today recognises five obediences working the Swedish Rite (in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland and one in Germany) were these two issues are present. They are integrated and they are governed by Grand Land Lodges which meet in the degree VIII (and thus the three craft degrees cannot be present). It seems that the criteria no. 5 of recognition is not met for these obediences, but recognition is still granted. Hi Berg and welcome to the Forum. I think you have missed the point a bit. The criteriais not addressingmanagement of individual degrees but of Masonic Units (ie Lodges) where they occur. A Federation of LDH is subserviant to the Supreme Council of LDH which is in Paris. This means that a LDH National Fedration failscriteria 5as its policies can be affected by its Supreme Council. Are you saying that this is true of the Grand Lodges to which you are referring? In other words can the Grand Lodge of Sweden issue a directive to the Grand Lodge of Denmark that it must comply with? Mike: Thanks for the welcome. I must admit that writing my post I didn't re-read criteria 5 all that carefully as I believed I remembered the content in the recognition criteria from before. But now I have read it more carefully. No, I didn't mean that the Grand Lodge of Sweden can order the Grand Lodge of Denmark what to do. I meant that they each, separately, have integrated the craft degrees (degrees I-III) and “higher” degrees (degrees IV-X) as I thought that that was one of the issues. So, with reference to your comment in post 19317 regarding viewing each LDH National Federation as separate Grand lodge vs. viewing the entire LDH as a whole, do I understand it correctly that: - The integration of the three craft degrees with higher degrees (that is organisationally, as in LDH having degrees 1-33 or Swedish Rite having degrees I-X in one organisation) doesn't constitute a breach of criteria no. 5? There need not be any separation of craft degrees and higher degrees? - Lodges working the three craft degrees being controlled directly by a body of “higher” degrees, e.g. a Supreme Council, does not constitute a breach of criteria no. 5? - It is only when lodges working the three craft degrees are grouped into one Grand Lodge, and that Grand Lodge is controlled by a body of “higher” degrees that the criteria no. 5 in not met? I might add that I only ask since I would like to understand how this works. It is not meant as any comment as to which Grand Lodge should recognise which other Grand Lodge. Post #19463 lauderdalelauderdale Posted 11/03/2010 08:59 Excellent Master Group: Forum Members Last Login: 04/07/2010 12:56 Posts: 2,238, Visits: 4,269 Bro Berg, there are many ways in which LDH differs from the pattern of Freemasonry typified by UGLE. Apart from the obvious that we have Women Brethren as well as Men and both are completely equal, we have an Initiatic Continuity in the A&ASR from 1st Degree to 33rd. Other Degrees and Orders such as Mark, RAM, HRA, KTs and ROS are York Rite. These come under or Most Puissant Grand Commander (MPGC) who is also the Guardian of the Allied Degrees, in this case different to the AMD in Malecraft Freemasonry. Our Rituals tend to be more Esoteric and Mystical, at least those I have seen here in Britain, we are less "Social" and Charity tends to be a less public matter than in UGLE and of course we are smaller in that respect than them. We are also quite democratic in our structure, our MPGC and our National Council are elected and have a limited term of office as indeed does our Grand Master in Paris who can be of any nationality, the previous one was Icelandic. Lodges have quite a bit more autonomy too, for example a Lodge can change the ritual it uses after due discussion and decision by the Brethren who are members thereof and matters such as changing date and time of Meetings are easier to achieve. The issue of the Supreme Council in Paris being our ultimate controlling body is to me a bit of a canard as there are representatives from each Federation thereon and after all we are an International Order. As I have said they grant a great deal of Autonomy to each Federation.The question in the end is moot as, even if the matter of our having women Brethren was discounted by UGLE (and I cannot see that occuring) there are too many differences in our respective philosophies and methodolgies and to be honest I have yet to meet an LDH member who would wish to be Recognised by UGLE nor an UGLE member who would wish to see that Recognition given. As I have said elsewhere, there is no need for the many different varients of Freemasonry Universal to have to change as there are versions to suit all, Male Only, Women Only, Mixed, and some which do not require any stated Belief in a Supreme Being and thus are open to Atheists and Agnostics etc. I often compare the various systems of Freemasonry to the churches which make up Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church is very different in many aspects to for example the Methodists, but both are Christians.As for Scandanavian Freemasonry I have in the past sat in Lodge and HRA Chapter, at FMH Gt Queen Street, with Brethren from that system holding the Higher Degrees. Post #19470 BergBerg Posted 11/03/2010 21:15 Apprentice Group: Forum Members Last Login: 11/03/2010 21:13 Posts: 3, Visits: 5 Bro. Lauderdale, thanks for your post. I have been ”lurking” in this forum for a time and have already gained some knowledge about LDH by your earlier posts. It is always nice to read about the differences that exists. The reason for me posting was not to advocate that UGLE should or should not recognise LDH or any other obedience, or vice versa. I leave these questions to the members of each obedience. It was just that I thought that I understood the criteria for recognition by the UGLE but earlier posts in the thread made me unsure that I had understood them correctly. 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Hi Berg and welcome to the Forum.
I think you have missed the point a bit. The criteria is not addressing management of individual degrees but of Masonic Units (ie Lodges) where they occur.
A Federation of LDH is subserviant to the Supreme Council of LDH which is in Paris. This means that a LDH National Fedration fails criteria 5 as its policies can be affected by its Supreme Council.
Are you saying that this is true of the Grand Lodges to which you are referring? In other words can the Grand Lodge of Sweden issue a directive to the Grand Lodge of Denmark that it must comply with?
MikeThe Freemasons' Grand Charity My Mother Lodge website Join or just visit my Masonic Web RingSee my BALLS here
You know, it is not that bad answering ultimately to a Supreme Council in Paris and as we are an International Order the venue is irrelevant, from what I have personally experienced their yoke is light and they do not micromanage us.
Still, each to his own as they say.
When talking about the SwOF and their religious demands I was referring to "the ordinary Masonic tradition" and not specifically to UGLE:s rules of recognition, for example the words from Anderson's Constitution on "that religion in which all men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves". You are quite right to point out that UGLE:s criteria of regularity do not demand this, though.
/ Bro. Ola
Hi Ola,
OK I see that but of course when talking about the ordinary Masonic tradition, there are those who argue quite convincingly against Anderson's de-Christianisation of what was a very Christian pasttime prior to 1717.
The question in the end is moot as, even if the matter of our having women Brethren was discounted by UGLE (and I cannot see that occuring) there are too many differences in our respective philosophies and methodolgies and to be honest I have yet to meet an LDH member who would wish to be Recognised by UGLE nor an UGLE member who would wish to see that Recognition given. As I have said elsewhere, there is no need for the many different varients of Freemasonry Universal to have to change as there are versions to suit all, Male Only, Women Only, Mixed, and some which do not require any stated Belief in a Supreme Being and thus are open to Atheists and Agnostics etc. I often compare the various systems of Freemasonry to the churches which make up Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church is very different in many aspects to for example the Methodists, but both are Christians.
As for Scandanavian Freemasonry I have in the past sat in Lodge and HRA Chapter, at FMH Gt Queen Street, with Brethren from that system holding the Higher Degrees.
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