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Why do some Freemasons think we have a Knights Templar connction?

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AJM	Posted 16/09/2009 10:47:15
Apprentice Group: Forum Member Last Login: 16/06/2011 14:48:33 Posts: 33, Visits: 445	In answer to the question "Why do some Freemasons think we have a connection to the Knights Templar?", I can only say that you do indeed have such a connection, it just isn't where anyone expected it to be.* It is a wonderful testament to the order's ability to grab hold of something ancient and allow its influence to be felt after many centuries of operation, speculation and controversy. AJM * There is no evidence of a Templar exodus to Scotland, nor is there even a hint of truth behind the (relatively recent) legends of a bloodline. In fact, the truth is fairly prosaic and has so far left no room for doubt in the minds of those who have analysed the paper. ________________________________________________________ Official Website
Post #11966
Russell Holland	Posted 17/09/2009 08:55:59
Fellow Group: Forum Member Last Login: 11/12/2011 21:12:13 Posts: 334, Visits: 2,812	I recall Tom, a Lt Col of a tank regiment whom I knew moderately. One day we were visited by someone from Switzerland and I rather thought that Tom and the visitor had the same shape in the edge of the nose. So I asked Tom if he had past life connections with the visitor. He replied: Oh yes. We were Knights Templar together. I noted that a tank regiment might be the modern equivalent of a troop of KT. We were in Scotland at the time Could it be that reincarnated KT quite often recognise each other and possibly band together in suitable fraternal or military bodies?
Post #11994
lauderdale	Posted 17/09/2009 11:24:01
Excellent Master Group: Forum Member Last Login: 10/07/2011 06:43:06 Posts: 2,146, Visits: 4,278	Quite possibly Bro Russell. I read a case of two people who claimed that in their previous life they had been in the SS during the war. Both were born (again?) in the 1950s, one in the UK, one in the USA and were in no way related. When they met up in their 20s they realised that they knew each other and both had an interest and knowledge in Hitler's Germany. They researched together and both came to the conclusion that they had served together in the Waffen SS and had died together towards the end of WW2. I have no way of proving such a contention, but this could be similar to your KT Tank soldiers only they would have undergone several reincarnations from medieval times to the 20th century rather than one.
Post #12002
Russell Holland	Posted 20/09/2009 00:54:00
Fellow Group: Forum Member Last Login: 11/12/2011 21:12:13 Posts: 334, Visits: 2,812	Given that many of us have glimpses of our past reincarnations, it is quite possible that the Knights Templar reincarnated and formed or captured new groups some of which are within Masonry and some within military structures. Military lodges were very strong in propagating Masonry. Perhaps the reincarnational patterns of the KT would be an interesting study for a group of non-authentic Masonic historians
Post #12075
cuthbert	Posted 20/09/2009 22:22:53
Apprentice Group: Forum Member Last Login: 31/01/2012 21:21:46 Posts: 75, Visits: 252	Mike, I'll tell you the Legend as I was told. In 1307 the Order of the Templars was persectued by the Philippe the 4th in France, it seems for mere economical reasons: he had a large debt with the Templars and he wanted to "solve the problem". The Pope, Clemente the Vth, at the beginning didn't like the move of the King, but in those days the Catholic Church was under the influence of Philippe, becasue the French moved the quarters of the Church from Rome to Avignone, so he was forced to declare the Templars an association of heretics, and dissolved the Order. Not all the catholic countries wanted to follow Philippe, in particular the King of Portugal and I think Spain granted the Templars asylum askign them to change their name in Knights of Christ. In the Holy Roman Empire (Germany + Austria + Northern Italy) the Order of the Teutonic Knights helped their comrades of the brother Order, in Egnland the Templars were persecuted but in Scotland King Robert Bruce was already excummunicated by the Pope, so he had nothing to lose helping the Templars. In a battle against the English in 1314 the Scots defeated their neighbours with a "fresh battalion of heavy chivalry", and that was the beginning of the masonic legend according to these knights were Templars and they were helping Robert to defeat the english who at that time were catholics. Since then the legends says that they were accepted in the operative lodges of freemasons in Scotland who were working on the territory, and they supposely built Roslyn chapel, where as a matter of fact you can find some templar symbology. This legend was "officialised" in the masonci community by Michael Ramsey, the son of a Start loyalists who escaped in Fracne after the Glorious Revolution who, in a official speech in 1740, declared that the Freemasons descended from some "chivalry order", not mentioning the Templars in that occasion. Since 1740 in France many Templar degrees started to be worked, and they were all called "scottish", as a matter of fact any Rite in the continental and american masonry who called itself "scottish" is founded on this masonic legend, whatever it is the Scottish Ancient and Accepted Rite, the Rite of Perfection of Heredom, the Scottish Rite of Strict Templar Observance or the Rectified Scottish Rite. In particular, the 30th degree of the AASR deals with this legend, and the candidate is supposed to vindicate the honour of Jacques De Molay against the Tyranny of the Church and the Government (Clemens and Philippe, of course). There are many skulls involved in that ritual...:P The Ancients also worked a Templar degree, that I don't if it's related with the Kadosh degree, but I'd be curious to know. SW, Kensington Lodge 1767 ASJ Chapter Forum 4423
Post #12102
dp	Posted 21/09/2009 09:49:59
Past Master Group: Forum Member Last Login: 08/01/2012 18:59:22 Posts: 1,084, Visits: 3,065	Hi Cuthbert, well laid out post thanks. I personally think that there may be a problem with the assumption that Templar knights for some reason joined operative Masonic assemblies. Is there actual evidence for this? It may be the case but is the missing link. There is a poster on this forum who has discovered the link between the Templars and the Freemasons so hopefully we will all soon find out :) I think whatever the link of the real KT to Freemasonry we should not get it confused with the modern speculative KT order. Which I don't believe has any direct link to the Knights Templar at all. Although I stand to be corrected. The majority of the higher degrees that popped up at this time with any link to Scotland came about for the political reasons of the Jacobites...
Post #12115
cuthbert	Posted 21/09/2009 12:22:37
Apprentice Group: Forum Member Last Login: 31/01/2012 21:21:46 Posts: 75, Visits: 252	Dear Dp, I agree that if you are looking for an "historic evidence" there's little or nothing that can prove this masonic legend, because personally I take it as a legend. On the other side, I think that most of us consider the story of H:.A:. a masonic legend as well, despite of the efforts of certain brethren (Lomas and Co.) to try to "prove" that he was a historic figure of the past, therefore in my opinion there's nothing wrong with the story of Heredom if we consider it "allegoric". About Ramsay and his speech in 1737 there's this link: http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/ramsay_a/ramsay_a.html I think that this is what the opener of the thread wanted to know: the origins of the templar/masonic connection. SW, Kensington Lodge 1767 ASJ Chapter Forum 4423
Post #12117
dp	Posted 21/09/2009 15:04:27
Past Master Group: Forum Member Last Login: 08/01/2012 18:59:22 Posts: 1,084, Visits: 3,065	cuthbert (21/09/2009) Dear Dp, I agree that if you are looking for an "historic evidence" there's little or nothing that can prove this masonic legend, because personally I take it as a legend. Me too, but as I said there is a very well informed poster on this site who has spent a long time looking into it and has apparently found a real connection. So I know everyone will be really excited when his paper comes out. cuthbert (21/09/2009) On the other side, I think that most of us consider the story of H:.A:. a masonic legend as well, despite of the efforts of certain brethren (Lomas and Co.) to try to "prove" that he was a historic figure of the past, therefore in my opinion there's nothing wrong with the story of Heredom if we consider it "allegoric". I don't have a problem with anyone's view on the subject, whether they take it as fact, allegory or fiction. I am in KT and Malta and can't see any allegory relating to the connection of the actual historic KT to the Masonic order, but maybe I'm a bit thick and that's why it's not my favorite order :) Maybe it's just that my path lies elsewhere. I am not however in any other Templar based order so don't know how they view their connections with the original order. cuthbert (21/09/2009) About Ramsay and his speech in 1737 there's this link: http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/ramsay_a/ramsay_a.html Thanks for the link. cuthbert (21/09/2009) I think that this is what the opener of the thread wanted to know: the origins of the templar/masonic connection. Sorry I thought he was after hard evidence: Why do some Freemasons believe that the Craft originated or were influenced by the Knights Templar What actual evidence is there? I must have misread both yours and his quotes. Anyway, not to worry...
Post #12121
cuthbert	Posted 21/09/2009 15:35:45
Apprentice Group: Forum Member Last Login: 31/01/2012 21:21:46 Posts: 75, Visits: 252	1) Me too, but as I said there is a very well informed poster on this site who has spent a long time looking into it and has apparently found a real connection. So I know everyone will be really excited when his paper comes out. 2) I don't have a problem with anyone's view on the subject, whether they take it as fact, allegory or fiction. I am in KT and Malta and can't see any allegory relating to the connection of the actual historic KT to the Masonic order, but maybe I'm a bit thick and that's why it's not my favorite order :) Maybe it's just that my path lies elsewhere. I am not however in any other Templar based order so don't know how they view their connections with the original order. 3) I must have misread both yours and his quotes. Anyway, not to worry... 1)This is indeed interesting, where is he going to present his paper?At Quator Coronati? 2)Oh well, I'm not familiar with the templar degree as it is worked in England, all my observations refer to the 30th degree of the RSAA, at least how it's worked in Europe and the US. In that system, the degree is supposed to emulate the initiation of the Templar Knights, including Baphomet, the destruction of the Temple, the revenge of the Order etc...etc... I'm looking forward to entering in the KTs in order to see if there is a difference, I also suspect that in England the Kadosh degree is also very different, if not completely opposite in the meaning. 3)I understood that he wanted to have an historic connection, to me Ramsay's speech is the first solid proof, before 1737 I can't really say... SW, Kensington Lodge 1767 ASJ Chapter Forum 4423
Post #12123
Nosameerf	Posted 21/09/2009 16:05:33
Master Group: Forum Member Last Login: 08/10/2011 14:42:49 Posts: 433, Visits: 9,411	cuthbert (21/09/2009) 1)This is indeed interesting, where is he going to present his paper?At Quator Coronati? I think this thread may be of interest: http://www.thefreemason.com/community/Topic11366-11-1.aspx Strength of manhood and beauty of spirit need combination. Masonry thus needs strength with gracefulness, stability with courtesy, and firmness with gentleness. Sapere aude; incipe!
Post #12124